I'm rather angry!

So it’s objectively wrong to say that 80% is a lot more than 20% and if developers were listening to the users they’d please more of them by making decisions based on what the largest percentage wants. Ok then.

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No, it is objectively wrong to say a “few” users are un happy.

It is also objectively wrong to use the google play numbers to suggest 80% of users are happy with the new UI. The numbers as is are biased, as previously stated, and are also incapable of indicating users opinion about the UI.

The developer has already admitted they develop for themselves alone. No attempts have been made to find out what k-9 users actually want. In face, such discussion is actively discouraged and dismissed.

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A How-To for downloading + going back to the old 5.6 version was posted here weeks ago and once you do that you can disable auto-updates (also explained in that topic) and simply ignore that there are any.

You do realize that your little hissy-fit here is helping nobody, right? It’s the dev’s choice which features to add/delete/change and if you don’t like it you don’t have to use it.

And yes, 80% is more than 17% so the majority, no matter what the exact number of users is for either scenario, ARE happy with K-9. No idea what you think you’ll achieve here, besides annoying those of us that come here and actually try to help.

Downgrading is not possible on google play. Most users simply are not going to sideload apps as well as many devices will not allow it as can be seen by some posts on this forum of people trying to downgrade.

That makes the google play numbers biased and useless for this discussion.

You also have zero idea the opinions of the 80% regarding the UI as no attempt has been made to find out. So 80% being > 20% is meaningless.

What we do know is the attitude of the projects maintainer towards users and the project as a whole as well as the near unanimous feedback against the new UI from thousands of users across various platforms going back 6 years.

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Please just fork it, give it a new name and leave. You are not helping here in any way, shape or form.

EDIT: This was intended as a reply to Bun-Bun.

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And what a disservice it is to existing users to tell them to fork a project because the maintainer can’t be bothered.

What exactly does your post do in the way of helping?

I on the other hand have helped people make better decisions and they have thanked me.

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No, I did not ask users in general to do that.

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If the answer to the general user hate against the new UI and how this update was handled; which is what I am here as; is to fork the project, then yes that is exactly what you just did.

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There is no “general user hate against the new UI”. Some love it, some are indifferent, some hate it. No-one knows the value of these three different “some”. Numbers (which are more or less biased in either direction) has been presented already, but you still say “general user hate” nonetheless.
It is time to end the endless complaining. Over and out.

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K-9 is licensed under Apache 2.0 open source license. It seems to me you have not read the terms of the license before coming here to throw a tantrum. I highly suggest you take the time to carefully go through the text, especially regarding ‘Warranties’.

For your convenience: k-9/LICENSE at main · k9mail/k-9 · GitHub

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There are general users, and a significant portion of them hate the new UI.

So yes, you said it towards general users.

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I suggest you read up on ethics and the history of opensource.

“Without users, your program is not a program, it’s a pointless piece of code that you might as well throw away.”

Imagine if all opensource projects held the anti user stance that K-9 does and threw non warranty agreements in users faces anytime they asked for something. Those agreements are to protect the developers from being responsible/liable for downstream issues. Not to make them anti user.

No. I said it to YOU, Bun-Bun. Please don’t ever put words in someone else’s mouth.

  • plonk *
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I’m a general user. You said it to general users. As well as it has been to response from many others here. Which is an assholish response and anti user.

If you want to see examples of putting words in others mouths, see replies to my posts that twist my words and claim that is what I’m saying.

It’s not an anti user stance, it’s anti Karen stance. It’s not up to you or me or any other user to decide, much less demand what an app looks like or how it functions, that’s a decision made by the dev(s).

Nobody is forcing anybody to use an app they no longer like, and since K-9 was never a paid app (IIRC?) nobody can complain about not getting their moneys worth or any other silly reason.

Just move on already - those of us that like/love K-9 won’t stop doing so because of your tantrums, and those that don’t like it don’t need your tantrums either since they already made their choice. :roll_eyes:

The maintainer has received funding that allowed them to work full time on the project.

And yes, they hold an anti user stance. They have admitted it themselves on these forums and in the IRC channel. While taking money to work on the project and not being up front with their intentions.

Several people have contacted me, thanking me for letting them know about the situation and have moved on as a result. And that’s only the ones that have contacted me. You’re wrong again.

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The maintainer has received funding that allowed them to work full time on the project.

The funding from the Prototype Fund was to add JMAP support to K-9 Mail’s code base. The deliverables were the source code and a final report, nothing else.

And yes, they hold an anti user stance. They have admitted it themselves on these forums and in the IRC channel.

Not letting users decide on the roadmap of the project and an “anti user stance” are two different things. Users who report problems, request features, and/or describe the use cases they hope will be supported influence what future versions of K-9 Mail will look like all the time. Of course not every feature/change that is requested will be added. Yes, the final decision is mine. But mostly lack of time and nobody else to implement a feature are what shape K-9 Mail. Not a tyrannical maintainer who says no to everything.

While taking money to work on the project and not being up front with their intentions.

People who donate presumably do so because they derived value from the app in the past. I don’t think my “intentions” have changed since I started asking for donations. What exactly do you think people need to know?

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The funding from the Prototype Fund was to add JMAP support to K-9 Mail’s code base. The deliverables were the source code and a final report, nothing else.

Obviously not the only funds you have received. Still, I would be curious to know what they would think of how you manage the project. Especially considering their goal is to support public interest projects. Not self serving developers.

Not letting users decide on the roadmap of the project and an “anti user stance” are two different things. Users who report problems, request features, and/or describe the use cases they hope will be supported influence what future versions of K-9 Mail will look like all the time. Of course not every feature/change that is requested will be added.

There is a big difference between feature requests and regressions due to a massive UI/UX design departure.

Yes, the final decision is mine. But mostly lack of time and nobody else to implement a feature are what shape K-9 Mail. Not a tyrannical maintainer who says no to everything.

You seriously need to take a step back and look at how you portray yourself everywhere on this project. Tyrannical maintainer is exactly how you come across. From the very beginning of the UI change when you were given feedback your answer was no, this is what we are doing. You don’t care what your users want in this regard, you have made up your mind and are going in the direction you want. Full stop.

People who donate presumably do so because they derived value from the app in the past. I don’t think my “intentions” have changed since I started asking for donations. What exactly do you think people need to know?

I can’t possibly know the intents behind every donator, but I would hope they are donating to support an open source project that has the best interests of it’s users in mind.

What exactly do users need to know before supporting you? This.

Your anti user stance or whatever you want to call your description of open source development being only a self serving venture needs to be the first thing any perspective user reads on github/playstore/f-droid. You can disagree with me on how the K-9 project should be managed, but to not be upfront with the above is unethical. And no, open source development does not assume this stance and you are far from a majority in thinking this is what open source development should be.

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There is a big difference between feature requests and regressions due to a massive UI/UX design departure.

K-9 Mail is hardly the only open source project that changed its user interface. There are always users who hate such a change. If you believe the app was written for users just like you, it’s not hard to see why you believe the developers are destroying the app. But what if the app wasn’t written for you? What if the old version of the app just happened to work very well for you and now the new version doesn’t? Why should your opinion on what the app should be matter more than the opinion of the people actually building the app?

From the very beginning of the UI change when you were given feedback your answer was no, this is what we are doing. You don’t care what your users want in this regard, you have made up your mind and are going in the direction you want. Full stop.

Realisticly, you can’t have both versions of the UI. So no matter what decision you make, it’s always a “no” to the other option.

When we started discussing the UI overhaul there was mainly one person who was very rude and whose main argument was “Material Design is stupid”. On the other hand, there were many people excited about the change, and quite a few people actually contributing design mockups and/or code for the new user interface.

The initial negative feedback after the release was mostly “I hate it. Bring back the old version”. I tried to elicit more constructive criticism and asked Why was the account overview screen useful?. A couple of people were actually helpful so a plan could be formed.
But mostly people felt they were entitled to “their” UI and they weren’t particularly polite about it. If anyone wants to know why I didn’t make bringing back the account overview screen the top priority, I suggest reading some of the comments. Think about how motivated you would feel in light of all the hostility.

Your anti user stance or whatever you want to call your description of open source development being only a self serving venture needs to be the first thing any perspective user reads on github/playstore/f-droid.

I admit that my comment was bad communication and can be read to mean I only build the app for myself. But I wrote “having the app work for me is my primary goal”, not that it’s my only goal. I spend a significant part of my week answering support requests, reviewing pull requests, and thinking of ways to make the app easier to use for other people. If you honestly believe that I don’t care about users at all, you have not been paying attention.
Surely, there’s much that I could improve when it comes to communicating with users. But it’s just like with working on the app, never enough time to do a perfect job (or when it comes to communication even a decent job).

So do I care about users? I’d like to think so. Why else would I spend so much time trying to make K-9 Mail work better for others?
Do I think users have a right to the app never changing in a way they don’t like? No. I will do what I think is best for the app. Of course my decisions are influenced by what users want. But in the end it’s my decision. And there will always be users who disagree. I think you will find this is the case for many open source projects. I’d even say it’s unavoidable given enough users.

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